Important clarification/FAQ
I am not calling to coddle or excuse the behavior of bigoted men in any way!
I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :)
Very good comments that express key points:
- Detailed summary of the situation if you’re wondering what’s going on
- The rhetorical value of the bear hypothetical and what this means for you
- One example of why the long-term rhetorical value of the hypothetical is poor, in the context of intersectionality
- What does disenfranchisement mean in this context?
- The importance of not asking women to tone down their expressions of fear and frustration
- “But why can’t they just say it nicely?”
- The importance of participation in kindness toward young men, specifically outside the context of people speaking their experiences
Edit: This post has now been removed and restored twice. I want to encourage you all:
Be decent to one another
I think this post is a valuable thing given the current state of the Fediverse, please don’t fuck it up for us by being toxic in the comments.
It’s true that nuance does indeed often get lost in online debates, so I appreciate you for making this post.
thanks! i hope this format can catch on im kind of proud of it lol
OK, seriously, I thought I’ve spent enough free time on Lemmy telling you to watch Barbie here for some of you here to, you know, actually watch Barbie.
So let me be clear: it is ultimately the Barbies’ complete disregard for the Kens’ feelings that led to the Kens being poisoned by the idea of the Patriarchy and all the subsequent mess in Barbieland, so way ahead of you on 2, to reiterate, what the Kens did was wrong, but you have got to take a nuanced approach to these things.
Also, on 1, all I said was that unlike the meme I feel that bears are terrifying, and then some weirdo came out of the woodwork and got really angry and start talking over me and calling me a dumbass and I was making it all about me somehow. The irony was so palpable I was at a loss for words.
shitty people are just shitty, gender has nothing to do with it. Women and men are both capable of being abusers.
This meme is based AF
no u ❤️
nuance:
we need a nuance posting rule on the internet i think.
For every sensational shitpost you must provide at least one nuance.
honestly i would smash the subscribe button so hard on a c/nuanceposting community. verbose and carefully worded memes are my absolute jam. 😎🙂↕️
Hopefully people see this and stop posting ragebait 🙏
Social media doesn’t often reward kindness, but that’s what is needed. Show kindness to young men, when you can. They need better guidance.
Many people conflate kindness with weakness, however, in reality it is the opposite. It is easier to tear someone down, than to build something. The tendency to tear other people down comes from a need to feel higher in the social pecking order which they cannot attain with their lack of ability.
Could someone explain number 2 to me? A lot of big words, and I have trouble to understand what it’s trying to say.
Young men are much more likely to be non-conforming to sexist cultural/gender norms and stereotypes, which often leads to them being ostracized more by general society and makes it easier for grifters (like manosphere influencers) to take ahold of them and radicalize them with alt-right and/or extremely misogynistic beliefs.
There are plenty of amazing feminist role models, but the right’s form of propoganda is so much more enticing because it tells you that everyone else is the problem and you’re superior to others, rather than ask you to give a shot at understanding reality like leftist influences do. That goes with anything on the right, fascists are a lot more motivating and good at gaining/rallying radical supporters because it’s so much easier to get people on your side if you’re allowed to lie about everything. So naturally, impressionable – and extremely vulnerable and emotionally volatile – young men gravitate towards the extreme negative influences due to how our society and education is poorly set up to prevent that.
And in this case how sexism and toxic masculinity is deeply ingrained into our society that so many of these young men are made to feel like they’re “not real men” by those around them, it really pushes them towards this even more. Rather than reject the idea of a “real man” or a “real woman”, they embrace them even more and convince themselves that they are the realest men, and OTHERS are pathetic.
It blames women who express their fear of being scared of men for the violence commited by men against women
I think your post is exactly what is criticized by OP. In the first part of the post it is explicitly stated men should not talk over the fear of women. A message like yours seems to blame people just because they criticize the way of discussion in some places. I think it is obvious that men are influenced in a possible negative way, when they are always seen as danger. At least for me it probably contributed to my low self esteem, especially in all sex/gender related topics. I think, we as men do so much harm, I don’t want to take part in this. But i took it to the extreme, so I was ashamed of everything sexual about me. But as OP said, all of this doesn’t invalidate the feeling of any woman. But for example this situation here is not governed by fear, still it seems you can’t discuss the social effects of this sentiment “against” man, without discrediting the other side. Sure, violence done mainly to women is the most important topic. But if men always get portrayed as danger, I can understand some are open to other, more misogynist worldviews.
It’s claiming that pushing men out of civilized communities, spaces and conversations ultimately leads to them embracing more accepting alt-right ideologies and movements.
Follow up question: What would be a practical example on how to achieve this? To not push men out of civilized communities that is.
I think it has to happen in person.
At the heart of this is the unfortunate fact that nuance is lost in online discussion. The reason that the bear scenario is so notable is it is so polarising. “yes! That’s how I feel!” vs “you’re reducing me to a threat”
An honest and direct conversation between two peers is far more likely to have a lasting effect. Hearing what the lived experience is directly from the person who’s experiencing it is far, far more more compelling than the stark bear statement.
I don’t feel unsafe most of the time. But I have felt unsafe and vulnerable before. Thus when a female colleague told me about being followed by a guy in a park while walking her dog, and feeling torn between straight running away and keeping her pet safe, it resonated directly with me. I could see her reliving the experience and see her distress. She shouldn’t have to go through that. It’s not fair.
That conversation resonated far more completely than the bear tweet.
Let us talk, dont immediately shut us up if we aren’t actively harming the discussion, let men know that their feelings are valid too but that they dont overshadow others feelings (jumping straight to that second half is NOT helpful). Let memes like this one exist without deleting them for lumping them in with the angry assholes
👆👆🗣️🗣️
This whole thing is completely blown out of proportion. The fact that young disenfranchised men are getting upset that women they don’t know are choosing a bear over them says that they are taking it personally when it’s not.
If you’re a young man, and the people around you have decided they would rather choose the bear over you, that’s a sign that you need to sit down and take a hard look at yourself about why they would do that. What have you done that would make them decide that. And if you extend that feeling to random women that you don’t know, then you need to sit down and take a hard look at yourself why you feel that way. You don’t know the lived experience of random women. You don’t know why they would choose certain death over you. Taking it personally only shows your immaturity. You can’t control how other people feel. You can only control yourself. If you want to understand why women around you would choose the bear, maybe try asking them nicely and actually listen. Empathy works both ways. Showing some will encourage people to reciprocate.
It’s not certain death. Bears are predictable, you can easily scare a bear away or play dead. Random men are unpredictable. As a man, I would much rather ruin into a beat than some sketchy dude who wants to rob me or wear my skin as a coat.
But that’s just it. It’s not about the bear. It was never about the bear. It’s about women not trusting unknown men, and the men who get offended by that. Anyone that insists on predicting what the bear would do, or wants to discuss statistics of bear attacks, is missing the point. It’s distracting away from the actual conversation.
Women have the right to feel uncomfortable around unknown men. Men have the right to feel hurt by that sentiment. But it’s not the responsibility of women to coddle the men and make them feel better. The men need to understand that they can only control themselves. Part of controlling themselves is to empathize with women and try to understand why they would choose the bear. Not get upset that a random woman doesn’t want to be alone with them. Not proclaim they’d also choose the bear because they don’t want to be alone with some sketchy man. Not convince them that the bear is statistically more dangerous. Just simply listen and try to understand. That’s all. When you learn to control yourself and empathize, you’ll find others that will do the same. And then maybe some of those women will choose you over the bear…
Women have the right to feel uncomfortable around unknown men.
I guess
Men have the right to feel hurt by that sentiment.
Fair enough.
But it’s not the responsibility of women to coddle the men and make them feel better.
Okay, I’m following
The men need to understand that they can only control themselves. Part of controlling themselves is to empathize with women and try to understand why they would choose the bear.
Whoa whoa wait, so it is the responsibility of men to coddle the women and make them feel better?
Choosing the bear is stupid and irrational. But isn’t it on women to stop being irrational, rather than on men to make them feel comfortable enough to make the rational choice?
Or, alternatively, if it’s on men to make women feel comfortable, then isn’t it women’s responsibility to not cause men to feel hurt?
You can’t have it both ways. Either each gender has a right to be irrational and needs to figure their own shit out, or each gender has a responsibility to help the other feel better about gender relations. What you wrote is “men have a problem? Men need to fix it. Women have a problem? Men also need to fix it.”
“Just remember, men: under no circumstances are women ever wrong. Every problem is caused by you and must be fixed by you.”
there is only one truth, and it is that there is no gender war, only misdirection from class warfare that has monetized and monopolized even our interpersonal, romantic, and sexual connection.
when people don’t have problems, you can’t sell them solutions.
The shackles of sexism, racism, and homophobia do not simply fall off when you accept class consciousness. These are still fights for awareness which must continue to be fought. Otherwise, we risk allowing toxic mentalities into our midst, which will only serve to alienate and expel our minority brethren.
The cages built by the state which cordon us off from one another exist in the mind, but they are very real in impact. We must fight by destroying the cages in each of our thoughts, and pass our knowledge to others so they can do the same. That is the only means to stand as one.
Let’s also not forget that there are very real shackles placed on many groups - many real cages - which we must work to destroy as well.
Here’s Orwell in “Homage to Catalonia”:
“There were perhaps a thousand men at the barracks, and a score or so of women, apart from the militiamen’s wives who did the cooking. There were still women serving in the militias, though not very many. In the early battles they had fought side by side with the men as a matter of course. It is a thing that seems natural in time of revolution. Ideas were changing ready, however. The militiamen had to be kept out of the riding-school while the women were drilling there because they laughed at the women and put them off. A few months earlier no one would have seen anything comic in a woman handling a gun.”
This was in an overwhelmingly leftist camp. Orwell sees glimpses of an anarchist collective based on mutual aid popping up. Yet, sexisim clearly persisted after a period where it had been pushed aside.
These issues don’t go away just because people become class conscious.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail.
No, we also have a sickle
I’ve got a guillotine in the garage I can break out, too, but I might need you guys to help me move it.
Even if we take gender-based issues as very real (which is often not quite true since we target a demographic of literally half the planet, which is never representative), they come second to the class warfare.
A poor male worker holds way less power than a rich businesswoman.
Those young men should also choose the bear. If we explained that to them, and why, maybe the next generation wouldn’t need to.
I think you’re misunderstanding the point of the meme then
Not really. It’s saying to soften the language. I disagree. I say explain the language and why that level of anger is justified. The boys will quickly realize and be told that it’s not about them. They’ll likely also be just as mad at the s*** that goes on.
Kids are smart. If you tell them that women would pick a bear because a small percentage of men rape a large percentage of women, they’ll get that.
Women: “men are horrible rapists”
Men who are not rapists: “hey that’s pretty insulting”
Women: “oh not you, you’re one of the good ones”
Men who are not rapists: “oh well in that case please proceed with your sexism”
??
Dogs bite people. Never pet a dog you don’t know.
Outlets shock people. Always check the fuse is off at the circuit breaker.
Men are strong and brave. We draft them for war.
You’re hearing a sound bite and jumping to conclusions because your brain thinks it’s about you and gets defensive. It’s not about you. Not everything is about you. That’s was the hardest thing for me to learn as a generic white dude. Some things aren’t about me, aren’t for me, and that’s ok.
I feel like you are overlooking the fact that bears are dangerous too! Yeah, you will probably be fine. But you might get mauled. I don’t think anyone is arguing there is zero risk to being alone in the woods with a random man. It’s a question of which is more dangerous. The original bear vs man statement is so vague that it’s hard to answer scientifically but I maintain my original stance that most women who were alone in the forest with a random bear would choose to switch to a random man once they realized what that felt like.
I think what many men, myself included, find rather upsetting is the assessment of the risk men represent by feminists. If someone said “I would rather jump out of an airplane with a trash bag for a parachute than fly next to a Muslim” that would be offensive to Muslims. Even if you tried to justify that statement with your reply above… it would still be offensive.
Let’s assume, though it’s silly, that death is inevitable in the scenario. A bear isn’t going to torture you or rape you. It’s a quick death. Can man guarantee me the same?
Making some weird race comparison is racist because someone’s race doesn’t dictate their maximum cruelty. However, their species does.
But if there were some religion where you only got into heaven by torturing people slowly, then your analogy would be apt. Those people on a whole would have a higher maximum cruelty.
A bear isn’t going to torture you or rape you. It’s a quick death.
This isn’t really true though? Bears aren’t cold calculated killers. If you were to fully accept death, slit your own carotid, whatever, sure, that would work, you’d die within like the next thirty seconds, whatever, which, I guess you could do in either scenario really, so, kind of a moot point. But bears, man, getting attacked by a bear is brutal. I dunno how many post-bear attack victims you’ve seen but it’s not pretty or quick. Bears will bat at you with their claws defensively if you try to defend yourself at all, down to the bone, they’ll put their weight on top of you and crush in your ribcage making it extremely hard to breathe and impossible to scream, leading to internal bleeding, and then when you’re incapable of movement because your spinal column is crushed and the adrenaline starts wearing off, it drags you off where it can start gnawing on you and ripping out your entrails.
Bear attacks are pretty horrifying, getting attacked by wildlife is no joke. I feel like a lot of people don’t have firsthand knowledge, but the bears, they are grisly.
Some things aren’t about me, aren’t for me, and that’s ok.
Most countries literally have laws against that, they’re just not applied to straight white men😂
Dogs bite people. But better to pet a dog than a lion.
Outlets shock people. I’d rather use an electric heater than set a fire in my house.
This is the bear meme. It’s not about the thing. It’s about the comparison.
Many do. Why is why we have MGTOW and Andrew Tate
Because…men…make up ~80% of all murder victims, in addition to 90% of the perpetrators? According to the UN’s 2019 homicide study?
That’s why men fall into frothing inceldom and whatever Andrew Tate is doing? Because they share statistically just as much risk regarding other men as women face from men, just for a predominantly different crime?
Because that’s why they need to be choosing the bear, and that just doesn’t sound right…
You’re using the bear analogy wrong. If the bear analogy was about statistics, they’d choose the human because statistically speaking, many, many more people are helpful than harmful. Especially compared to a dangerous wild animal.
People pick the bear because they themselves have been hurt too many times or have heard of people being hurt too many times. There is a perception that the bear is safer.
That can go both ways. And often people choosing the bear can be in a vulnerable state, which the likes of Andrew Tate preys on.
